Frame Modifications and Registration

[Some_Doofus]

Sorry if this is in the wrong board, just let me know and I'll move it. And before anyone jumps me for being "just another young'n ruining a perfectly good bike, tryna make a quick buck" etc, know that I am building this bike for myself, I will not do it half assed or illegally, I want it to be something I can be proud of and not something I'll have to hide from the cops. Anything I do I will do right or not at all. Hopefully I'm not aiming too high.

I've been planning my cafe racer build and was hoping to modify the rear portion of the frame to remove/straighten the dip/curve in the seat rails. This mod is a priority for me as it'll really tidy the lines of the bike and produce a much cleaner, finished look. Ideally I want to chop the whole rear section of the frame (or if not the whole rear at least the top rails and the stamped section) and replace it with a simple, straight tube frame like this:

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This is a rough mockup of what I hope to accomplish, but, being in NSW there are some sticking points when it comes to registration. My biggest concerns are getting structural changes engineered, and how much that will cost me. I know cost is going to vary between engineers, and I'm pretty sure it's going to be high anywhere I go, I just want a ballpark figure.

So has anyone done anything similar in Australia, more specifically in NSW, and how much did it cost you? What specifically did you have done? What was the process like working with the engineer? Did you consult the engineer before modifying or after?

Again, I want to do this right, I want this bike to last and I want to enjoy it long after I've finished building it.

Thanks guys

[Seagrass]

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your build.

In NSW you will not be able to register a bike like in the picture even if it has an engineer certificate. The rear tyre must be covered by the frame/mudguard to be registered.

You may be able to register it on the “historic modified” scheme but even that may be difficult.

Sounds like you are doing your homework so keep at it and please keep us up to date.

Most people on this forum are more than happy to see a CX turned into a cafe racer but many of us consider it a bit sad if a good complete bike is cut up when using an incomplete bike would have been just as good.

Seagrass

[Some_Doofus]

I am aware of the missing rear mudguard issue and will hopefully find a decent looking solution, even if that's just using a long plastic plate holder until I get it registered and then reverting to a shorter one, but hopefully I can come up with something better than that. I'll at least want the subframe/seat to come a bit past the axel and I could possibly cover the remaining section of the wheel with the number plate and a bracket attached to the swing arm. Hopefully something like this is allowed.

This is only a rough mockup to get an idea of colour schemes and such so the final design is still a work in progress. I'm just at the stage of figuring out how much red tape I'll have to jump through. Starting to wish I lived in Vic, despite the covid outbreak.

[Seagrass]

Tread very carefully. Even if you can get it registered with the number plate as the part covering the rear tyre it is NOT legal to ride it like this and if you are pulled over by the police they are likely to defect the bike which then can be a nightmare to have removed (think frame modifications and engineers certificates etc).

Seagrass

[Some_Doofus]

Even if you can get it registered with the number plate as the part covering the rear tyre it is NOT legal to ride it like this

I'm not sure I understand, if I can successfully register it using the plate as a guard of sorts, wouldn't the fact that I registered it like that make it legal to ride?

[Mins Man]

I've found through experience that when dealing with the Police that they have different interpretations of any given rule. A lot depends on what sort of day they are having and your attitude to them.
I've had some experience dealing with engineers for modified cars and I think it's always best to talk to one and outline your plans before you go ahead so that you know exactly what they will and won't allow.
Good luck with your project.

[bahn88]

I've found through experience that when dealing with the Police that they have different interpretations of any given rule. A lot depends on what sort of day they are having and your attitude to them.
I've had some experience dealing with engineers for modified cars and I think it's always best to talk to one and outline your plans before you go ahead so that you know exactly what they will and won't allow.
Good luck with your project.

I remember getting a 1969 CB250 "defected" for excessive noise by an officer who in conversation said-"I don't care if you have a current RWC its too loud-I could hear you from 1/4 mile away....you cant ride it til its fixed..."

So yep-interpretation.

[Some_Doofus]

I guess you're gonna have to deal with those types no matter what you do, bar leaving the whole thing completely stock.

Is this example any better or closer to getting registered in NSW?
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To my untrained eye it looks like the shock mounts would be stronger, as would the bottom of the frame thanks to the steel plate sections welded in. The number plate on the rear is also pretty much what I had in mind for covering the rear wheel, although it'll probably need to be a bit longer to cover the whole wheel. What do we think?

[Seagrass]

I believe in NSW the number plate is not an acceptable covering for the rear tyre as it is not a “fixed” part of the bike.

This is what I was speaking of and some places will allow it for a pink/blue slip BUT the police are happy to defect the vehicle as it does not comply with regulations.

Seagrass

[Mins Man]

I remember getting a 1969 CB250 "defected" for excessive noise by an officer who in conversation said-"I don't care if you have a current RWC its too loud-I could hear you from 1/4 mile away....you cant ride it til its fixed..."

Back in the day as we Oldies like to say, I always had modified cars and bikes which always had louder than stock exhaust systems. The local Coppers were forever pulling us over for a vehicle check, which comprised a quick look at the tyres and sticking their big size 12 boot onto the accelerator to check the exhaust noise.
Invariable they would say that's too loud, get it fixed and report to the Police Station within 7 days.
No problemo....I had a piece of aluminium mesh that I used to roll up and insert into my tailpipe with a broom handle. It always passed their inspection and about 24 hours later it would start to come out of the exhaust pipe so that I could grab it and remove it completely until the next time. 

[Kathy]

This is what I was speaking of and some places will allow it for a pink/blue slip BUT the police are happy to defect the vehicle as it does not comply with regulations.

Also, and believe it not, something that complies with the Australian Design Rules (ie, ADRs) is not necessarily legal ...

Case in point: I have headlight modulators installed on a couple of my bikes and according to the ADRs the modulator can be used to modulate either low beam or high beam and it must also have a daylight sensor so that the modulator doesn't operate at night.  I installed them to modulate high beam as this means that with bikes which have low beam always on I can choose when to use the modulator - only problem is that having high beam on during daylight hours and/or flashing high beam is illegal ...  So - my headlight modulator installation complies with the ADRs but is illegal ...

[bahn88]

 

I remember getting a 1969 CB250 "defected" for excessive noise by an officer who in conversation said-"I don't care if you have a current RWC its too loud-I could hear you from 1/4 mile away....you cant ride it til its fixed..."

Back in the day as we Oldies like to say, I always had modified cars and bikes which always had louder than stock exhaust systems. The local Coppers were forever pulling us over for a vehicle check, which comprised a quick look at the tyres and sticking their big size 12 boot onto the accelerator to check the exhaust noise.
Invariable they would say that's too loud, get it fixed and report to the Police Station within 7 days.
No problemo....I had a piece of aluminium mesh that I used to roll up and insert into my tailpipe with a broom handle. It always passed their inspection and about 24 hours later it would start to come out of the exhaust pipe so that I could grab it and remove it completely until the next time. 

lol-exactly what i did-but used "chicken wire" left over  from the budgie cage-though I may have packed it in too tight-the bike would idle ok but power delivery was akin to a 50-90cc.... .......but it was only for 10km to the inspection station and back

[Some_Doofus]

Haha hopefully I'll be able to come up with something a bit more elegant than the ole "wire mesh up the pipe" trick. I'm still of the mind that louder pipes are safer for the rider but unfortunately I don't think the cops have figured that out yet 

[muzza]

Louder pipes are safer for the bank account of the local audiologist as he tests your deafness level - they dont make a scrap of differance safety wise to road users because you are always ahead of the noise.

[jhovel]

I have a friend who is a vehicle engineer, with a particular interest in engineering motorcycle mods.
I had this conversation with him some time ago. He strongly recommended that the engineer should be used a s a resource, rather than a hurdle. By that he explained, show him/or her what is there in the first place - photos, technical details like tube diameter, wall thickness welds, brackets fittings etc., then show him what you have in mind to replace those parts - including tube diameter, wall thickness, material specs, new brackets, fittings and welds (incl. available weld processes and welder's qualifications).
He/she will then do the calculations, FEAs and sketches or drawings for you and examine the work in progress and/or completion.
Don't try and hide anything under paint or filler - he/she will ask you to remove it!
If you ask his/her advice, rather than be determined to get him/her approve your "engineering" - expect lack of co-operation and certification!
It's HIS/HER insurance who will be liable for a failed mod in an accident! and him/her in court if someone is injured of dies as a result....
Keep all this in mind and have a really good read of the ADRs and their regulations in NSW. You will find good guidance about what is permitted and what is not, e.g. the angle and height off the deck any mudguards need to be....
Good luck!

[Dragonstaff]

Wise words, Joe, and some we all should remember.

[Some_Doofus]

Just thought I would update what I've been up to regarding the frame mods.
I decided to go ahead with fabricating a whole new rear section and getting it engineered properly. Before I started chopping anything I got a local engineer over to do a pre-inspection and discuss what I wanted to do, what I'll need to do to make it safe and legal and what I won't be allowed to do (the initial inspection cost $350 but was very helpful). He said that as long as I keep the suspension geometry basically the same, don't use tubing that is much thinner or much thicker than stock and make sure the work is done by someone competent then all should be fine. He was more concerned making sure I knew about mudguard and blinker rules and such, even provided me a few booklets outlining the regulations I need to adhere to. He was actually very enthusiastic about the framework and thought it will look great when finished.

I recently started fabrication of the frame with the help of my older brother who has basically done all the work (very skilled fitter and turner by trade, has access to all the necessary toys). I used 1 inch tubing and a seat hoop of matching diameter and thickness for the frame. I actually found some pretty bad rust holes in the bottom of the original tubing in the lower stamped section so instead of just cutting flush to the stamped section and welding the new to the old we cut the old tubing out and welded the new tubing in the same place better than stock. The rest of the work was pretty basic requiring only minimal bending and welding so everything is nice and straight and square. Up next we will be making the new shock mounts (red in first pic), rear fuel tank mount and other brackets/braces to improve strength. It's all coming along well and I'm happy with the results so far.
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