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A A A A Author Topic: Need Help, running out of ideas  (Read 942 times)

Highside

Need Help, running out of ideas
« Started on: 05-Feb-20, 20:04 »
Hi All, I need some help .
I have a problem with my 1981 CX 500. The bike was done up in 2016 and has been running great up until a few months ago.

One day when I was going to go for a ride, the bike started up fine and would idle nice but would not rev up freely, when the revs started to rise it would start to miss and had no power. When I went for the ride it struggled to get the revs up to 4000 rpm and had no power.

Thinking it was a carby problem, I removed the carbies and gave then a clean. This made no difference and the problem was still there.

Thinking I hadn't done a very good job of the carbies, I bought and a pair of "Carburettor repair Rebuild kit for Honda CX500C CX500 with Air Cut Off Valve Set 80-82" and went through the carbies again. This time, very carefully and replaced a lot of the components and seals and made sure they were clean and all the fuel passages were clear.  This made no difference and the problem was still there.

Now thinking it might be an electrical issue, I went around to a mate place who has CX500. We changed from his bike to mine,
-The coils, spark plug leads and caps. This made no difference and the problem was still there.
-Changed the CDI unit under the seat.  This made no difference and the problem was still there.
-Changed the carburettors.  This made no difference and the problem was still there.
-Changed the spark plugs.  This made no difference and the problem was still there.
Then swapped everthing back to my bike.

Starting to run out of options I checked the valve clearance to make sure they were right.  This made no difference and the problem was still there.

Now thinking it must be the Stator, I got onto the Motor  Faction web site and found the test procedure for the Stator -CDI. After performing the test and entering the test results information onto the computer, it told me;
3-5      Advance Faulty
7-5      Advance faulty
9-5      Coil faulty
9-8      Coil faulty
After seeing these results, I ordered a Ignitech CDI unit. This unit arrived yesterday, I was all excited thinking this unit was going to fix the problem and all would be fine again. After connecting the unit up and starting the bike, I could't believe,  This made no difference and the problem was still there.

Has anyone had a similar issue or have any advice as to what to check next??????. I think I've been pity thorough in all the checks and work done so far but am at my wits end as to what the problem could be or what to check/change next????  Advice needed.
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Seagrass

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #1 on: 05-Feb-20, 21:04 »
It is a pity you did not come here first the problems you are having are well documented and typically are caused by a failing Stator. The solution to your problem is possibly a Rae-SAN ignition (made by Rayman, a member of this forum).

I believe this unit is superior to the ignitetech unit and there are options to overcome all of the problems you are experiencing. From memory the ignitetech unit needs the pulses from the pickup and advance coils (which are faulty on your bike) to generate spark at the needed time.

The other option is to drop the engine and replace the Stator and advance coils as this will/should restore the bike to its original performance.

Seagrass

J.C.

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #2 on: 06-Feb-20, 07:19 »
The Ignitech does not need the stator coils nor the advance coils, but it does need the high and low speed pickups to be working. If the pickups were tested as being within spec hot and cold the Ignitech would have been a reasonable solution which would not have required the motor to be dropped.

Did you put the larger jet size in the brass emulsion tube? Very clean carbs will have issues if the jets are reversed in their locations in one or both bodies. That won’t have happened on its own, though...

How did you clean the carbs?

Highside

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #3 on: 06-Feb-20, 14:47 »
Thanks for the replies,

I am very confident the jets have not been changed and are in there correct position and the correct size. Also I must point out that I don't think it is a carby issue because I have swapped carbies to a set that came off a low millage bike that that was running really well, and it made not difference to the way my bike was running.

The Motor Faction Stator Test results indicated that the stator was the problem, it also indicated that the Ignitech CDI unit would overcome the problem. The faulty high and low speed coils and the faulty right and left advancers would become obsolete.

The Stator Test was done when the engine was cold, and the pickups were within the acceptable range. The problem with the engine is there when the bike is started and cold, it doesn't appear and get worse as the engine warms up.   Are the pickups something that fails, has anyone else had issues with the pickup requiring them to be changed??

How does the Ignitech CDI unit know to advance the spark, how /where does it get the signal from to advance the spark??


CX PHREAK

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #4 on: 06-Feb-20, 15:12 »
The advancers are rendered obsolete by the ignitech but the left and right pickups are not as the ignitech requires these to know when to trigger the sparks.

All electrical coils can have thermally induced faults when they begin to fail.

Advance is controlled internally to the ignitech. I don't know how it functions but the unit handles the advance curve internally.

bahn88

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #5 on: 06-Feb-20, 18:59 »
So if its an engine drop...... to cover all bases--could it be Ray's hall effect module plus the igitech (which is already bought in this case)

J.C.

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #6 on: 07-Feb-20, 07:32 »
Doing the test when hot is one of the steps in the writeup, I have seen motors before where the pickups are barely within tolerance when cold and are shown to be well over the line when hot. You'd expect that the problem would then only be visible when hot but it doesn't always seem to work out that way. This may not be the case with your motor, either way.

If the high/low speed pickups are reading normally but are faulty then Rae San offer a pickup module - cheaper than the Full Hall Effect kit - which will replace the high/low speed pickups and work with your Ignitech.

I have installed one of those systems before for someone and it worked well. Did not require removal of the rear engine cover to install, just the pulser cover. Motor has to be dropped, same as for the Full Hall Effect... unless you're a surgeon who doesn't have a coolant overflow bottle and can do fancy things in very tight spaces.

CX PHREAK

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #7 on: 07-Feb-20, 11:12 »
I've changed halls twice just lately {and retimed once} without removing the engine and I do have the standard coolant bottle {CDI, I don't know if this can be pulled off with TI}.

 I found that if I unbolt the coolant bottle it .... won't come out. But it can be wiggled up and down to get it as much out of the way as possible. The bottom and lower left cover bolts are mongrels to get to - but doable. Putting them back is even more fun than getting them out.

It's not easy but took less time than an engine drop.

Highside

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #8 on: 07-Feb-20, 18:42 »
Hi All,

I have gone back and read through Stator Test-CDI again thinking I must have missed the section about doing the test twice, hot and cold. The steps in this procedure do not mention doing the test twice, so I read the TI procedure, which states at the start, that the test needs to be done Twice, hot and cold.
I will repeat the test when I get a chance and do it cold and hot, hopefully it will provide a bit more information and and pinpoint the cause of the problem.

I am unfamiliar with the Rae San and Hall Effect Kit you have mentioned, where can I find out some more information on these pickups and where can I buy them from.
I have no issues with dropping the engine out to replace the pickups if that's what's required.  I am at the stage where they are about the last thing to check/replace. This has been a very frustrating problem to diagnose but i'm not ready to give up just yet, Ha Ha.

Seagrass

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #9 on: 07-Feb-20, 20:44 »
Google is your friend in this Case,

 https://www.rae-san.com/

Seagrass

J.C.

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #10 on: 07-Feb-20, 21:40 »
Hi All,

I have gone back and read through Stator Test-CDI again thinking I must have missed the section about doing the test twice, hot and cold. The steps in this procedure do not mention doing the test twice, so I read the TI procedure, which states at the start, that the test needs to be done Twice, hot and cold.
I will repeat the test when I get a chance and do it cold and hot, hopefully it will provide a bit more information and and pinpoint the cause of the problem.

I am unfamiliar with the Rae San and Hall Effect Kit you have mentioned, where can I find out some more information on these pickups and where can I buy them from.
I have no issues with dropping the engine out to replace the pickups if that's what's required.  I am at the stage where they are about the last thing to check/replace. This has been a very frustrating problem to diagnose but i'm not ready to give up just yet, Ha Ha.

Good catch, I thought I had added that note years ago. While it may not have changed anything in this particular case, I have added the note about cold/hot motor testing to both the automated test results page and the writeup. If you want to see the update and your browser has cached the old copy of the page you may need to refresh and if that doesn't work clear the cache.

J.C.

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #11 on: 07-Feb-20, 21:41 »
The Rae San Full Hall Effect kit (found on the page Seagrass linked above) does not utilise the Honda pickups, so they can be left in-situ (and indeed the right hand one has the little pointer for the timing so it's helpful to leave it) - it has an alternate method of sensing the engine position using magnets and pickups that sit where the advance coils are under the back of the motor.

Installation photos here:

https://motofaction.org/motorcycles/honda-cx-gl/a-how-install-guide-rae-san-hall-effect-aftermarket-ignition-cdi-replacement-cx500-gl500-cx650-gl650/

Highside

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #12 on: 09-Feb-20, 01:59 »
Hi All,

Thanks for the information and the links to the Rae-San Web site and the installation procedure, I have had a good look at and read through both.
I will redo the Stator Test -CDI tomorrow and see what results I get, but I am already thinking I may just change over to the Rae-San pickup system.
Then the whole pickup/CDI system will be new and fully electronic .

Highside

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #13 on: 09-Feb-20, 11:58 »
Hi All,

I have repeated the Stator Test-CDI and done it twice, cold and hot. The result of the hot test when entered into online test results were;

1-5  Your right pickup is faulty and needs to be replaced. This is required for both the stock CDI and Ignitech modules.
2-5  Your right pickup is faulty and needs to be replaced. This is required for both the stock CDI and Ignitech modules.
3-5  Your advance is faulty. Replace it if you’re running the stock CDI. If you are using an Ignitech the bike will run normally with a faulty advance.
4-5  Your left pickup is faulty and needs to be replaced. This is required for both the stock CDI and Ignitech modules.
6-5  Your left pickup is faulty and needs to be replaced. This is required for both the stock CDI and Ignitech modules.
7-5  Your advance is faulty. Replace it if you’re running the stock CDI. If you are using an Ignitech the bike will run normally with a faulty advance.
9-5  Some of the coils on your stator are faulty - if you are using the stock CDI you will need to replace the stator. The Ignitech does not require these coils to run.
9-8  Some of the coils on your stator are faulty - if you are using the stock CDI you will need to replace the stator. The Ignitech does not require these coils to run.

From the results it looks like I will be purchasing a Rae-San pickup system, and dropping the engine out to install it. Hopefully this will finally fix the problem and get the bike running normally again.

Cass

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #14 on: 11-Feb-20, 15:51 »
My 2c worth if your fitting a Rae-san hall effect buy a cheap 8mm ratchet spanner and grind the top flat, so you can get into the tight spot. even if you drop the motor, you are
still going to have to set the timing with the ignition on and see where it sparks so the cover needs to be put back on hence the 8mm ratchet spanner. The overflow bottle will
go back once the motor is back from the left hand side. Fiddly job!

Cass. happy0158

Ps. I recommend Jumper " A ".

Highside

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #15 on: 11-Feb-20, 20:58 »
Hi All,

Thanks for the tip Cass, I will keep that in mind, I need to read through the procedure for installing and setting up the timing a couple more times
so I am clear what has to be done before the parts get here.

ACE

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #16 on: 13-Feb-20, 12:56 »
If all else fails ...dropping the motor and replacing the stator  is a piece of cake even for a dummy like me!
Good luck with it all
Ace

Seagrass

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #17 on: 13-Feb-20, 17:11 »
If all else fails ...dropping the motor and replacing the stator  is a piece of cake even for a dummy like me!
Good luck with it all
Ace

I have very clear memories of your anxiety when I first suggested you do it. You have come a very long way for a humble (now retired) school principal happy0159

Seagrass

ACE

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #18 on: 13-Feb-20, 21:39 »
True mate....with lots of support from our fellow members  here  it proved to be an easy and satisfying  task.
Cheers
Chris

Rustynail

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #19 on: 19-Feb-20, 11:44 »
Be encouraged, I found installing a Caltric G8 stator and installing a full Rea-San Hall-Effect Kit to be an easy task on my 1981 CX including setting the timing - just follow the instructions provided by Ray and have your bike's ignition system powered up. Eliminates all the old and weary components of the charging and timing systems. Cheers, Paul

Highside

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #20 on: 22-Feb-20, 20:52 »
Hi All,

I have dropped the engine and installed the Rae-San Hall Effect Sensor and Rotor, set the timing for both sides so the red LED came ON and OFF at the correct position, which wasn't that hard to achieve. I have now re-installed the engine and put everything back in place.

Wired everything up as per the instructions, and was feeling very confident when trying to start the bike for the first time this morning, but I was unable to get it to start, so got the timing light out to check the spark against the timing marks, only to find there is only a single fire of the spark plug when the starter button is first pushed and then there are no other fires.

On review of the Rae-San instruction it mentions, Ignitech Configuration, and having to change the input configuration of the unit. The input needs to be changed;
- on the the Bike Tab setting
- to Classic 1 lobe, 2 pickup, Positive Polarity.

I have plugged the unit into the computer but the computer has not acknowledged it is there.
How do I change these settings and where do I find the appropriate Ignitech software?

J.C.

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #21 on: 23-Feb-20, 08:02 »
The unit needs power - I use a laptop and sit next to the bike when it’s powered on.

At one point I did one that required the opposite polarity to the instructions, if I recall correctly. If you have no luck with one of the two options try the other. May have been a typo in the instructions at that time, I don’t recall.

Highside

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #22 on: 23-Feb-20, 20:48 »
Hi All,

Thanks JC for the advice, I didn't have a Laptop with a serial port as had to bring the battery inside and make up some wires to to be able to plug the Ignitech into the back of my deck top computer.
I have finally made the changes to the Ignitech unit, it took a lot longer than I expected just trying to figure out how to get the Ignitech and the computer software talking to each other, (I'm not a computer wizkid). Tomorrow will be the big day to see if the bike finally runs properly.

J.C.

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #23 on: 24-Feb-20, 15:23 »
Good stuff. It's not the most straightforward thing to do if you aren't used to that sort of thing.

Fingers crossed!

Highside

Re: Need Help, running out of ideas
« Reply #24 on: 24-Feb-20, 20:15 »
Hi All,

Still no Luck, no spark at all.
Remounted the Ignitech and battery, plugged all wires in, double checking as I went, but when I turned the ignition on and pressed the starter button there is still no spark (by using the timing light and also a spark plug held against the frame.)

-Rechecked all the wiring and made sure both the Ignitech and the Rae-San Hall Effect both had a 12 volt supply using the multi meter.
-Removed Ignitech and battery and plugged it back into the computer to conform that the "Classic 1 lobe, 2 pickup, positive polarity" was still in the Ignitech software, which it was.
-Unwrapped the tape around the Rae-San Hall effect wiring ( which I had put there to tidy up the wiring )between the large CX plug down to the push together wire connectors to make sure the 4 wires were securely joined together, which they were.

I have a couple of questions.
In the Ignitech Software, is the  "Classic 1 lobe, 2 pickup, positive polarity in the bike tab" the only thing that needs to be changed??

I need to check there is a spark signal coming from the left and right pick-ups of the Hall effect. If the
-Hall Effect is powered up and earthed with the red and green wires
-and the engine is set on the timing marks for the left and right cylinders,
-what voltage should I see on the yellow and brown wires at the big wire connector plug??. Is this the best way of checking I'm getting and signal for the Hall Effect Pickups??

 


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