Puggle

A A A A Author Topic: Starter Clutch  (Read 445 times)

gm

Starter Clutch
« Started on: 18-Jan-20, 12:41 »
good afternoon Gurus
nice to see some rain.
my journey continues into the depths of the 650.
  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]    [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  
I managed to remove the starting clutch not without some difficulties. I couldn't get the M20x1.5 bolt in the spline as the thread had been damaged so I had to clean it out with a tap.
anyway when the clutch came off I noticed two things that did not seem right.  firstly one of the rollers and plungers just fell out as I removed the clutch from the shaft.  secondly the three bolts were not torque heads they seem to be some thing different please see photo.  not sure what tool I need to remove the bolts.
also while I have your attention, I understand that the cam chain is self adjusting does this one look ok?
gm

J.C.

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #1 on: 18-Jan-20, 12:52 »
See if you can see this hole in the cam chain tensioner:

https://motofaction.org/motorcycles/honda-cx-gl/how-much-life-left-cam-chain-automatic-tensioner-honda-cx500-gl500-cx650-gl650/

I suspect that you can and that the chain is at the end of it's life.

Those are not stock Honda bolts there - the stock ones are available and are not expensive - looks like a 12 point fastener, though I haven't counted the points!

I would replace the starter clutch springs while you're in there - a genuine set is not expensive and if they used non-genuine fasteners for the mechanism they may not have used genuine springs (not the best logic but given how few bucks the springs are and how the non-genuine ones are reported to break it makes sense to me to replace).

gm

Re: starting cluth
« Reply #2 on: 18-Jan-20, 14:51 »
yes JC
the hole is about 75% visible.
while the motor is out are there other important things that should be replaced or checked?
I still have to do something with the cam shaft stripped thread for the impellor.  and there is some electrical cabling to be replaced.
This started out as a blockage in the carburetor.  a rather sharp learning curve for me but its an old bike and will be good when its running again.

CX PHREAK

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #3 on: 18-Jan-20, 15:15 »
Hole aside, once the coil spring has opened up so that the spacing between coils is twice that of the thickness of the spring wire the adjustment has run out.

Not all auto tensioners have this hole.

J.C.

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #4 on: 18-Jan-20, 16:54 »
That’s a good way of looking at it. Didn’t realise that not all have the hole. I’ll update that.

gm

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #5 on: 18-Jan-20, 17:11 »
thank you
nice guess JC it is indeed 12 points.  it measures up close to a 10mm but the 10mm socket does not seem to fit (too small).
and
as for the tensioner I have the wire at .9mm and the gap at 1.33.  what is the thought on longivity in this state or should I just forget that and replace it.
gm

CX PHREAK

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #6 on: 18-Jan-20, 17:22 »
The chain needs to be replaced.

 My comment regarding spring spacing is more for mirror inspection where it's hard to see the whole tensioner and is only an approximate. You'd also be very lucky to see the hole if there is one.

Be aware that a new chain will likely see the tensioner rod come out half way due to wear on the sprockets.

I fitted a new chain to an auto tensioner motor a couple of days ago. With new tensioner blade, guide blade and chain this one still used up half of the available adjustment as soon as the pin was pulled.

gm

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #7 on: 18-Jan-20, 21:22 »
thank you CX PHREAK
is there anything else that might benefit from inspections or replacement.
also
the 10mm socket would not fit the 12point bolt because the bolt is covered with a type of resin.  its stuck on hard so it will be a joy to remove.
gm

CX PHREAK

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #8 on: 18-Jan-20, 23:29 »
That resin is unusual. I'd break it up with a fine pin punch.

You'll need new torx bolts.

gm

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #9 on: 19-Jan-20, 17:06 »
good afternoon again Gurus
I eventually got the 12point bolts out they seem longer than the standard torx bolts they were very tight right to the finish.
I'm not sure how severe the damage is so theres a photo and I would be interested to hear your opinion.  one section has some noticeable ridges.
Also is it normal for the thread sleeve to protrude or have I uncovered something more sinister than just non standard bolts.  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  
gm

CX PHREAK

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #10 on: 19-Jan-20, 17:43 »
Hard to see, but the protruding threads look like a helicoil backing out.

If so, it can be replaced.

 Check that the thread is M8 x 1.25 by threading in a Honda 8 mm bolt as if they're helicoils they may have threaded to take anything they had on hand.

As your bike is a 650 it might be worth sourcing a replacement rotor froma 500 that has been kinder to the starter clutch.

I see at least one ovalled bolt hole.

A TI 500 rotor is a direct fit. CDI 500 rotor needs a mod to work.

Onetrack

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #11 on: 19-Jan-20, 17:59 »
To give your renovated starter clutch an easier life you must do the starter motor  improvement fix, It is the starter motor internal fault that causes this problem with the starter clutch whereby the starter has not got enough strength to overcome the compression stroke soon enough.

https://australiancx.asn.au/forum/index.php?topic=4459.0
"Young" Les F

J.C.

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #12 on: 19-Jan-20, 19:10 »
I have a CX650 rotor here that I am happy to send to you for the cost of postage if that’s easier/cheaper than fixing any broken threads etc.

gm

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #13 on: 19-Jan-20, 20:32 »
Thanks CXPRHEAK I might take up JCs offer. This rotor does not look right.
Onetrack yes definitely will make the modification.
JC thanks for the generous offer I have sent you a Personal Email.  (I hope)
I will let you all know how this turns out.  the parts list is certainly growing. 
I hope others benefit from the posts and photos.
Things haven't followed the normal path.
gm

gm

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #14 on: 08-Aug-20, 12:55 »
Hello Gurus
I hope you are all well.  Its been a while since I started this conversation I know, but this year hasn't been nice to me so far and I haven't been able to do anything to the bike.  I've gone over the past posts and realised that I had to order a new cam chain.  I noted that David Silver UK didn't have any although Wemoto did.  I haven't ordered through Wemoto before but I assume they are ok to deal with.
Is it wise to get a new guide and chain tensioner as well.
Also I have included a photo of the cam shaft with the stripped thread.  I think I will redo this thread to 5mm and put a washer in to take up the space. And there is this black stuff around the shaft highlighted in blue.  I'm not sure what this is.  At a guess it looks like a buildup of junk and should be cleaned off.  Can anyone confirm if this is the case.
GM

muzza

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #15 on: 08-Aug-20, 16:51 »
you need to be carefull playing with the waterpump shaft. the thread often snaps off altogether , and then you have bigger problems. You also need to be careful with the height of the dome nut that holds the impellor on - the original nut is fairly squat but reeplacement ones tend to be taller and rub on the housing cover

Seagrass

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #16 on: 08-Aug-20, 19:18 »
Graham leave the black stuff alone as it is oxidised (rusted) metal BUT the black surface implies it is stable.

I like your plan about making it a 5mm thread but I am not sure it will work very well as the valleys of the 6mm thread are already at 5mm so you may not have enough metal to get a good thread. In theory you do have enough but I am doubtful of the outcome. having said this you have nothing to lose so may as well try.

Seagrass

jhovel

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #17 on: 08-Aug-20, 22:30 »
I really doubt that M5 is sufficiently strong to hold the impeller in tight enough. That nut provides the pressure to hold the mechanical seal, the copper crush washer and the impeller in place. I've come across that issue before too and decided to drill the camshaft end 5mm and cut an M6 female thread into the end of the camshaft. The I used a stainless steel dome-head bolt with internal hex to hold it all together. It lasted for years in my stable and may still be going in the bike I sold a long time ago....

gm

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #18 on: 13-Aug-20, 10:26 »
Hi Gurus
thanks every one for your help.  Seagrass has explained the process for the drilling and tapping.  I might try the rethreading with a die nut first and see what it feels like. if its no good I'll cut the thread, drill and put in the new bolt. My concern is getting it straight.

I've hit another problem regarding the Cam chain.  David Silver had none and I thougt Wemoto had one but they don't, EBay has one that is claimed to be original but the photo looks like a well used one and they want $245. 

Is anyone aware of alternative suppliers.
gm


gm

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #20 on: 13-Aug-20, 13:55 »
thanks CXPHREAK is the 500 chain the same as the 650?

CX PHREAK

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #21 on: 13-Aug-20, 14:29 »
Yes, the same either way.

these are the best deal I know of and where I source mine.

You have to use distribution in the search term to find them.

gm

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #22 on: 13-Aug-20, 15:07 »
thanks CXPHREAK

jhovel

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #23 on: 13-Aug-20, 23:04 »
.... if its no good I'll cut the thread, drill and put in the new bolt. My concern is getting it straight.
...
Oh, you HAVE to do that on a lathe! No chance doing that freehand or in a drill press.

gm

Re: Starter Clutch
« Reply #24 on: 20-Sep-20, 10:32 »

hello Gurus

I noticed when pulling the cover off the previous work had included some sort of gasket goo on both sides of the gasket.  this seems to go beyond belt and braces approach is it necessary or should the new gasket be sufficient?

thanks Joe
using a lathe doesn't sound promising.
I've used a die nut and brought the thread down to 5mm.
the new stainless steel dome nut seems to fit good.
gm


 


Website and forum protected by
 STOP FORUM SPAM     Bad Behavior     Let's Encrypt

Puggle
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal