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A A A A Author Topic: Failure Inside the Rear Case  (Read 1836 times)

Barocca

Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Started on: 02-Dec-15, 15:07 »
The last time I rode the CX500 it started to make a clicking sound as we neared home.  It was sufficiently different from normal for me to consider whether to stop immediately or continue the remaining km to home.  There was no misfiring or loss of power, so I nursed the bike home.  I’d only done the basics after buying the bike (comp. test, tappets, oil and filters, plugs, flush and change coolant).  Had been planning a 3BP and had the parts in hand (inc. Rayman’s ignition), so yesterday the engine came out, and the mayonnaise in the pulser unit was the first item to sound an alarm bell.  Then the rear cover was removed, and the house of horrors was revealed. 
There appears to be a lot of caked “carbony” residue around the cam drive sprocket and scattered around the rear case in general.  The oil seal behind the mechanical seal has broken and its remains are very brittle.  Can anyone suggest what might be the prime cause of this failure?  Also, anything that I should be alert for as I continue the strip down? 

J.C.

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #1 on: 02-Dec-15, 15:58 »
Was the oil in the main area of the case creamy as well, or just that in the pulser area? Is the coolant weep hole blocked, by any chance?

https://cx500info.com/oil-seal-mechanical-seal-and-weep-hole-infopic

One possibility. The carbon-y stuff all over the cam sprocket is something I haven't personally seen before. Severely neglected oil changes + high temps? Poor quality oil?

Barocca

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #2 on: 02-Dec-15, 17:38 »
I've tried unsuccessfully to remove the flywheel bolt with a rattle gun, and with a solid steel socket and a savage whack from a 4lb hammer.  I've read that a strap wrench would not be up to the task, so could I consider a chain wrench?  Alternatively, is there another way to remove the bolt without opening up the front cover and removing the clutch etc?

J.C.

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #3 on: 02-Dec-15, 18:07 »
I don't think a chain wrench is going to get traction on the flywheel... though that's just going off how they look as I haven't attempted to use one.

What sort of rattle gun were you using?

So, following this:

https://cx500info.com/how-remove-flywheel-honda-cx500-gl500-cx650-gl650

it's this bolt you're trying to remove?

https://cx500info.com/sites/cx500info.com/files/images/2015-05-04/honda-cx500-flywheel-removal-how-to-remove-10.jpg


Barocca

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #4 on: 02-Dec-15, 20:23 »
Thanks JC. 
The oil in the rear case was black and a bit thick (viscous) in the bottom of the case. 
The weep hole was blocked.
Yes, that's the right bolt that I meant, I was using a Hitachi 18V rachet gun. 
My fear with the chain wrench is that it might "hall-mark" the flywheel. 

J.C.

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #5 on: 02-Dec-15, 20:31 »
Know anyone with a bigger rattle gun? Could take it to a local mechanic and probably get it done with their more powerful gun for free or a little beer money.

The first Ryobi 18V model I tried didn't budge it at all no matter how long I left it on there for, the second one I tried - about twice as powerful - did it in less than a second. 

Could spray penetrant around the bolt and let it soak for a while... couldn't hurt, though I don't know how much it would help.

I haven't ever tried heat on something like this so can't comment on that approach.

I'd go with a bigger gun, imho. Perhaps also try locking the crank by using the bolt at the front end of the motor behind the inspection port - might help a little, though I haven't ever had to do this using an impact wrench. Even just try locking it and using a long bar, though you may find that the front bolt undoes itself before the rear... or does that happen when undoing the flywheel? I forget.

How long a burst are you giving it?

CX PHREAK

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #6 on: 02-Dec-15, 20:39 »
Get a 2 foot breaker bar onto it.

Dragonstaff

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #7 on: 02-Dec-15, 20:56 »
Get a 2 foot breaker bar onto it.

And another two feet of water pipe.

Barocca

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #8 on: 02-Dec-15, 21:20 »
Thanks gentlemen.  I have the breaker bar and the water pipe, but I need to stop the flywheel rotating ("without opening up the front cover and removing the clutch etc").

J.C.

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #9 on: 02-Dec-15, 21:21 »
There's a port on the front cover just for this sort of thing - 17mm socket, undo it and you have access to the front end of the flywheel to attach a breaker bar and 17mm socket to to stop it from rotating.

There's a series of pics of where it is on this page:

https://cx500info.com/how-adjust-valve-clearance-honda-cx500-part-01

...that's with the radiator still attached. It's the only inspection port on the front, slightly above and to the center of the clutch cover - in-line with where the rear bolt on the crank is.

CX PHREAK

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #10 on: 02-Dec-15, 21:31 »
Unpredictable which bolt will crack first... but worth a try.

Seagrass

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #11 on: 02-Dec-15, 21:38 »
Do the job properly by locking the gears in front (need to remove front cover) and avoid other potential damage that you may GREATLY regret rolleye0012

Seagrass

J.C.

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #12 on: 02-Dec-15, 21:48 »
If you do take the front cover off here's some pics of the official Honda tool for holding it in place:

https://cx500info.com/07924-4150000-honda-special-tool-crankshaft-holder-review-cx500-gl500-cx650-gl650-cx400-gl400

...it's pretty simple - not hard to make your own with the right gear (or knowing someone).

CX PHREAK

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #13 on: 02-Dec-15, 21:54 »
Potentially a lot of those tools in a broken clutch basket.

J.C.

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #14 on: 02-Dec-15, 21:58 »
Hey, that's creative. I hadn't thought of that. Sacrifice one broken clutch basket for the good of many engines...

CX PHREAK

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #15 on: 02-Dec-15, 22:02 »
Got any broken baskets JC?

J.C.

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #16 on: 02-Dec-15, 22:03 »
I may do... I'll have to check. I have a box that I know has at least four or five clutches in it, there's likely to be at least one with an issue in there!

I've been planning on taking a broken one apart to see just what's underneath the rivets anyhow...

hamilton

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #17 on: 03-Dec-15, 05:49 »
A method i used, wrap an old camshaft timing belt around the flywheel, poke it through a piece of pipe, clamp the protruding end of belt with vice grips so it cant pull through,with the aforesaid breaker bar turn the bolt anti clock so the pipe hits the ground and tightens the belt around the flywheel, with someone steadying the engine the bolt can be undone.
With this set up, the more pressure you put on the breaker bar, the tighter the belt.

Barocca

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #18 on: 03-Dec-15, 13:20 »
Thanks to all for the shared wisdom.  In the end I used a pneumatic rattle-gun (so bl**dy easy) but this then failed to shift the flywheel extraction bolt.  The solution to this, for me, was a chain wrench and the breaker bar plus water pipe. 
So now I'm down to cleaning the messy cover and removing the cam chain and tensioner etc.  I'm still curious about the prime cause of the failure.  Hope to have some answers soon. 

CX PHREAK

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #19 on: 03-Dec-15, 13:24 »
I suspect the motor may have never been apart before and the cam oilseal has simply died from old age. I also suspect some overheating in the history of your motor, but this is a guess. The mess may be from a minor mech seal leak {with blocked weep hole} mixing with the crud from the weeping oilseal.

 I also think the motor has missed a number of oil changes.

Seagrass

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #20 on: 03-Dec-15, 14:11 »
I agree that the motor appears to have missed some oil changes which makes the oil quite thick and "gluggy". As the circulating oil provides the primary cooling fr the motor, when the oil is "gluggy" the cooling is compromised.

This is one of the primary reasons for failure of a CX engine, dirty/gluggy oil causing a big end bearing to sieze!

The oil seal looks to me to have failed due to overheating again making me suspect lack of oil changes.

Seagrass

Barocca

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #21 on: 10-Dec-15, 21:51 »
Have removed the cam-chain guide and tensioner blades.  Both are intact and able to be twisted without damage.  Whilst there are signs of wear, I don't know whether this is excessive as I can't find any reference to wear limits for these items.  The thicknesses measured at the narrowest parts are:
  • Guide  -  6.0mm
  • Tensioner  -  5.0mm
Any ideas about serviceable limits for these?

Seagrass

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #22 on: 11-Dec-15, 10:15 »
Have removed the cam-chain guide and tensioner blades.  Both are intact and able to be twisted without damage.  Whilst there are signs of wear, I don't know whether this is excessive as I can't find any reference to wear limits for these items.  The thicknesses measured at the narrowest parts are:
  • Guide  -  6.0mm
  • Tensioner  -  5.0mm
Any ideas about serviceable limits for these?

I think if they are not broken they are OK to use (and they are getting hard to find now so using the old ones could save some frustration finding replacements)

Seagrass

CX PHREAK

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #23 on: 11-Dec-15, 12:09 »
Both guide and tensioner rail are currently available from Silvers if you choose to replace them.

Barocca

Re: Failure Inside the Rear Case
« Reply #24 on: 14-Dec-15, 14:18 »
Checked stator connections and found all OK except:
  • 3-5   Your advance is faulty. Replace it if you’re running the stock CDI. If you are using an Ignitech the bike will run normally with a faulty advance.
  • 7-5   Your advance is faulty. Replace it if you’re running the stock CDI. If you are using an Ignitech the bike will run normally with a faulty advance.
  • 9-5   Some of the coils on your stator are faulty - if you are using the stock CDI you will need to replace the stator. The Ignitech does not require these coils to run.
As I have the new Rayman "Hall effect" ignition awaiting installation, I assume that this will not present an obstacle to correct operation.  However, could this failure have been the source of the clicking noise noticed on the bike's last outing?

After some light cleaning with the kerosene gun I found white powder appearing as shown on the attached photos.  What could this be?  Is it evidence of a malaise worse than mayonnaise?  I'm beginning to edge closer to the unhappy conclusion that I should strip the whole engine and inspect overall condition.  Booooogar. 2cry 

Are there any essential special tools that I'll need that can't be easily fabricated or adapted from an existing motley collection?

 


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